George Vrban is well known throughout the reverse mortgage industry for his sales acumen. Formerly an originator for Fairway Home Mortgage, he arrived at Movement Mortgage in 2023 and has been a key piece of Movement’s expansion efforts in the reverse segment.
At a time when Home Equity Conversion Mortgage (HECM) volume remains near historic lows — fueled in part by regulatory hurdles and the emergence of proprietary loans — Vrban continues to shine as a reverse-only loan officer. InGenius data shows that he originated 106 reverse mortgages for $69 million in volume during the year ending July 13.
Vrban recently spoke with HousingWire’s Reverse Mortgage Daily about his path to success, tips for connecting with the financial planning community and more.
Editor’s note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Neil Pierson: Movement has a different model than many lenders, where your team specializes in reverse mortgages. This comes at a time when some people in the industry are focused on collaboration and growth between the forward and reverse channels. How would you describe the advantages of your model and how it works on a day-to-day basis?
George Vrban: I came from the forward mortgage world. I used to do subprime loans back in 2002. But I switched gears in 2005, 2006, when I decided that the reverse space is a niche product and I really wanted to do that exclusively. So I’ve been doing reverse only for 20 years.
I dabbled and tried to do reverse loans here and there, but I found that this product really demands a lot of my time and effort and teaching, so I really switched gears and I focused 100%. I’ve been blessed. I’ve been doing over 100 loans a year for the last six years, and the only reason is because everybody in the industry knows this is all I do.
I come up with many different retirement strategies when I work with financial planners and clients across the United States. But when Harlan Accola and I came to Movement, we implemented a strategy where reverse mortgages are just originated by a small group of retirement mortgage professionals. And we found out that if the loan originator focuses exclusively on reverse volume, the conversion rates are higher and the customer experience is vastly improved. This is their bread and butter, understanding how to present this information the right way.
It’s very tough in this space to become a master at presenting and teaching when you dabble at it. I used to get people at my previous company who’d say, “George, my gosh, I’ve been trying to figure this out. I can’t do this. I’ve got to hand it over to you.” It can be overwhelming, daunting and complicated. But experience is about knowing what not to do, bottom line.
Pierson: Let’s discuss relationships with financial planners. You said at the Reverse Mastermind Summit that planners account for about half of your referral business, which is not the norm for most LOs. What has allowed you to cultivate successful relationships, and what might the average LO miss when they talk to that group of people?
Vrban: First of all, I understand their background. I have a finance degre, and I really wanted to practice the financial planning piece.
Back in the old days, there was a guy, Tom Dickson, who used to infiltrate financial planners and talk to them about reverse mortgage concepts, and he was making some headway. But it wasn’t until Harlan made some comments about financial planning that I put two and two together. This happened over 10 years ago. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is where people are missing the boat.”
I figured out a way to get into the financial planning space. I would talk to them and ask a lot of questions. I did a lot of homework, and I did a lot of traveling. I used to travel all over the state of Florida just to speak to one financial planner. Then it went to three, then it went to five, and all of a sudden, I started getting better at my craft.
The biggest thing I’ve found out is, they want that trust factor. They’re not going to let you talk to their clientele if you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about. So, to me, that’s a very important part. Some of these financial planners, they’re visualizing whether you’re a good fit for their clients. Do you come across as confident? Are you able to think on your feet and come back with certain responses?
A lot of people in our industry, unfortunately, get intimidated by financial advisers because of their backgrounds. But most advisers don’t know how reverse mortgages work. So you have to get in there, ask the right questions, build that rapport, and learn about them and their practices.
Again, I’m very blessed. It’s gotten to such a high level now for me, I sometimes get invited to be part of the financial planning group and discuss the client’s portfolio situation as part of their team. They want my feedback — “Hey, George, what would you do in this case?” I’m a math guy, and they want to see the math behind it, so we use software like ANALYZER PRO through REVERSE plus. Those are all fun things I get a chance to do, and I’ve just kind of mastered my craft over years of doing this stuff.
Pierson: As a self-professed “math guy,” tax strategies with reverse mortgages might come easier to you than the typical LO. Can you talk about how you approach tax strategies with a client who may be looking to tap their home equity in retirement?
Vrban: My disclaimer is I’m not a CPA. I’m just very familiar with the tax strategies that could be applied to this particular product, but by no means am I trying to be an expert on every single tax code that’s out there.
It’s just a matter of what makes sense to the financial adviser and what makes sense to the client, but the problem is it can be overwhelming. The reverse mortgage product itself is already overwhelming. When you start adding tax strategies and everything else to it, their heads are going to be spinning because there’s so much information.
With reverse mortgages, it’s a fascinating piece, and people just don’t understand that this is truly a retirement tool — and if used correctly, people can be more cash efficient and tax efficient. That’s the bottom line. But if people are not familiar with the tax codes out there, they don’t understand acquisition indebtedness, and they don’t understand the difference between that and home equity indebtedness, they’re going to have trouble explaining anything about reverse mortgages and tax strategies.
You’ve got to do the research. You’ve got to be prepared. You’ve got to get it validated by a CPA that the information is accurate, so that way you know what you’re talking about if you go that deep. But usually, I keep my pitches very simple. I don’t go into great detail. I just give enough information to explain some of the advantages on the tax side.
But the tax strategy is only one facet of this particular product. You’ve got to listen to the story of the clients and their financial situation. You have to provide a solution. I don’t just randomly start talking about tax until I hear their story. What’s in their investments? What are they concerned about?
It’s like a gunfighter coming to a gunfight, and he starts shooting all over the place. He doesn’t even know where the target is at. Before long, you’re out of bullets, and you did all the talking. It doesn’t work that way with reverse. You’ve got to be patient, understanding and listen to their story.
The difference with experience, in my situation, is that within 15 to 20 minutes of listening to the client, I can spit out three strategies to help these people out. At the end, I say, “Listen, you have three different ways we can attack this. Which one do you feel more comfortable with?” It’s not a question of doing it or not. The question is, which one makes more sense to get yourself in a better financial situation?
Pierson: Artificial intelligence seems to be something that everyone in the industry needs some knowledge of at this point. How are you using it daily? Do you feel like it’s helpful, and are there hurdles in the origination process that it could solve?
Vrban: I’m old school. I’m a big communication nut, so I want to see clients face to face. Does AI have a place? Absolutely, as far as operations and organizing everything for a company.
When it comes to originating, AI can help to a certain point, especially with some of the tools that people can use for presenting. But again, I’m about keeping it simple. I don’t want to overwhelm people, because they easily get overwhelmed with this concept. A good example: AI can find everything on the internet, including everything you want about reverse mortgages. It doesn’t mean someone will understand it.
AI can only help you to a certain point. You have to be the human — the missing piece for truly explaining how it works and how, if used correctly, it can really make a difference in the retirement situation. To me, AI won’t solve that part, but it can help a lot in a lot of other ways, for sure.